Curse

wetsparks · Jun 18, 2007, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

But even if ANet was generous enough to think along those lines, the ungrateful players that we are, some of those who would then be rewarded with amber/jade would probably complain that when they donated their faction, the amber/jade was worth x amount, much more than it is now (now it's only worth about 100-300 gold). Amber and jade just aren't worth that much now. Your "losses" from such a design change are probably relatively minimal now (maybe overall a good sum, but relatively considering the time and effort involved with generating that sum compared to the time and effort generating that relative faction is probably trivial). If amber and jade were worth a lot, that perceived unfairness could be seen as being more painful.

The new Luxon/Kurzick skills are a gift. You don't deserve it. Based on the design approach, you may have an advantage. Argue the scope of the advantage that perhaps is appropriate if ANet was generous enough to make the gift more widely available. I get the impression you're arguing that if ANet is being generous to others, you deserve a bigger gift.

ANet should just take these toys away. When kids are fighting over a toy and can't figure out a way to share, best thing to do is take it away.

This guy is absolutely right. Some people chose to get money for their amber, others chose to work on a title/help their alliance. You made your choice, now you know the consequences.
You can't give out Jade/Amber because those people who have the higher ranks were donating to their alliance when Jade/Amber where 4-5 times the price it is now, and the prices are just going to get lower. Besides, with them lowering rank one of the befriending titles you can get to rank one in a single weekend if you wanted to, without fff.

EternalTempest · Jun 18, 2007, 08:12 PM // 20:12

This could be something as simple as Anet did not keep permanent records on the database for amber/jade. The game may of been verifying Faction points go "down", add +1 amber to inventory and that's it.

If the records are not in the DB... they can't figure out who did what.

Vilaptca · Jun 18, 2007, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

Just in case it's not clear, these new Luxon/Kurzick skills have nothing to do with earlier choices made by players...zero, zilch.

The new Luxon/Kurzick skills are gifts. No one made any choices based on these gifts. Those who seem to perceive some entitlement to these skills...you may have a claim with respect to the titles and advantage in title ranks, etc., but not the skills, and not to amber or jade.

The design issue for ANet in releasing these new skills is how to scale their effectiveness, similar to the Sunspear PvE skills and how they scale with ranks in the Sunspear title. They arbitrarily selected those Kurzick/Luxon titles.

Personally, as evidenced by the discussion here, I don't think that was a wise approach. The fairest approach would've been a new title track. Everyone would perceive and acknowledge the novelty of the new benefit, and there would be no complaints about the undeserved advantage one group has over another.

It's a mess ANet did make, and whatever they decide to do, they need to address it. Whatever it is, the sooner the better as players start acting and relying on the information that has been provided already.

I completely agree with this.

If they added a new title track it would really have to be based off of how much faction we've earned. I can't see it being any other way.

It would also be the best way to reward both sides. Nobody loses anything this way. If you turned in your faction for amber or for your alliance, you've still earned it and it will count towards this new title.

dustbunny · Jun 18, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orphan Anthem

they are now giving some points for exchanging for amber, all we ask is for the people that previously exchanged for amber to get our fair end of the deal.

Actually, you are not asking for a fair deal. You are asking for more than that.

First of all, you received gold in exchange for the faction you redeemed into amber/jade. Given the choice, you opted to receive material possession and gave up the opportunity to get a tick on your title. The people that redeemed them by giving it to their alliance received no gold. They gave up the opportunity to have gold in return for a tick on their title. While you have extra pocket money to spend on whatever you wanted to spend, they did not. They got further on their title.

Now you want to keep your gold that you got and obtain the same reward that the others received. You want your cake and eat it too. Are you willing to retroactively give up all the gold you made from acquiring all the jade/amber in return for converting those faction points into your title track so you aren't getting rewarded twice for the faction points from the past while the others only receive it once for their title? Do you know how much that was? Does a database exist somewhere among the ArenaNet servers on how much every player made on converting faction to jade/amber so they can recalculate this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilaptca

I have lost out on a year's worth of time to achieve this title, which I now must grind out everyday if I ever want to see these skills. You've lost out on nothing.

Yes they have. They lost out on the gold/material they could otherwise have had. True, you lost the time. If you have the information now that you've had then, your decision may have been different. However, that would be the same for the other choice. If they knew that they could have received amber/jade back then AND get title progression, I'm sure their decision to donate to their alliance may be different. The people that chose to convert to jade/amber are not the only ones lost out on the opportunity cost of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilaptca

I am not opposed to giving people who donated towards their alliance amber. They deserve it. They've spent countless hours working on one of the most worthless titles in the game (until now).

Just like they cannot give you the opportunity to make a different decision a year ago, they cannot give back the opportunity to sell amber/jade at several plats a piece at the beginning of Factions release. Giving people that chose to donate faction to their alliance a truckload of jade/amber now is not the same as giving them a truckload of jade/amber through the life of Factions since it's inception. Now matter how you apply retroactivity, someone will get the short end of the solution.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilaptca

Both sides need to be rewarded.

Both sides were rewarded. Which side did not get rewarded?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kc2000ss

If faction is given to those who took amber I think it would be necessary to give amber to all those who gave faction to guilds.

They can do this, but it will still not make whole the people that made the choice to give up amber/jade in exchange for title progress. The problem is one of lost opportunity when the worth of these material was much, much higher. They cannot give this back.

In the end, ArenaNet cannot make it retroactive in a fair way to both side of the decision. The game with the rules then were played out and everyone played the same game. That game has come to an end.

This update changes the rules. The game is now different and everyone plays it. You now have new information. Lost among all this complaining is that the game is more rewarding now than it was before. Do people always complain about what you didn't get or how crappy the gift is when someone gives you a gift?

dustbunny · Jun 18, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

edit: deleted double post

Dougal Kronik · Jun 18, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

If it's possible, this should be done.

Andisa Kalorn · Jun 18, 2007, 09:46 PM // 21:46

People here are acting like trading for amber was extremely profitable or something. lol. Let's see... at current prices my total faction earned would be about 60k? A little bit more in the past, maybe twice that. Except I didn't sell any of it anyway. It was more like "hmm what am I going to do with this faction... well I can get amber... don't really need the money so I guess I'll get armor." So I actually ended up paying more to get the rest of the materials I needed.

My point is, there are FAR more profitable things to do than faction farm. If you want money, you could easily make the amount 100k faction would get you in a few hours, which is faster than farming the faction itself. So you say, "well it's not that hard to farm faction so stop whining and go do it", so maybe you should stop whining about lost earnings when you could make it back even faster?

Furthermore, how does money affect your gameplay? You can get everything you need for cheap. Money is only useful for getting vanity items, which have no effect on your gameplay whatsoever. The titles, on the other hand, are now linked to skills that DO have an effect on gameplay; the magnitude of effect is not important because ANY effect is greater than NONE.

So if this change were made, no, you would NOT be in a worse position than the people who got amber are in now. You would have less money, yes, but you would be equal in terms of gameplay, which is far more important than money.

I just don't get the money argument. Is it THAT necessary to have a mini kanaxai or crystalline sword? And if you care that much about it, what are you doing faction farming?

If you're jealous* because you think everyone who wants this change is rich, that may be true only because they spent their time doing things OTHER than faction farming (most people asking for this have far less faction than the title-seekers and town-holders).

But ultimately, skills are more important than money in this game. So I find it kinda odd that people are supporting a greater injustice done to others than a lesser injustice done to themselves. Although really, I guess it's not odd at all. It's just human nature.

*I don't mean to call any specific person jealous, I just suspect this feeling may be involved in some of the arguments because I can't think of any other logical reason. That's why I used the "if". Feel free to explain the real reason you're calling amber traders "greedy" and "selfish" if you feel I'm wrong.

Edit: Also consider this. Had you known that this was going to happen, and that it was going to be made retroactive (which probably won't happen anyway), and had you got amber instead of donating the faction, amber/jade would have been worth even less than they were, due to increased supply. And had you known this, and had everyone known this, FAR MORE people would have been farming faction and trading for the materials in order to prepare for the skills. So even if anet owes you money for this change that won't happen - they wouldn't owe you the market value that the materials were worth at the time.

XvArchonvX · Jun 18, 2007, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

This guy is absolutely right. Some people chose to get money for their amber, others chose to work on a title/help their alliance. You made your choice, now you know the consequences.
You can't give out Jade/Amber because those people who have the higher ranks were donating to their alliance when Jade/Amber where 4-5 times the price it is now, and the prices are just going to get lower. Besides, with them lowering rank one of the befriending titles you can get to rank one in a single weekend if you wanted to, without fff.

I'm not sure how trading in for amber/jade instead of donating the faction justifies one person getting access to skills while the other doesn't. I know there are a lot of people out there like me that are in a guild that could care less about owning a town. What reason would anyone have to donate this faction to the guild if the guild has no use for it? I never went for the title since the title needed an insanely large amount of faction donated even for the first level, so I decided to work on other titles instead with my time. The faction I earned I just traded in for jade/amber. Jade and Amber has not been worth trading since Factions was first released, but I figured there wasn't much else I had to do with my faction, so I just traded it in for materials just in case I or a guildmate wanted to get some armor.

Imo, what this comes down to is that some people essentially had different motives and different goals. Some people had no reason to donate faction while others did. Neither perspective was 'better' than the other, both put in work towards earning faction for their own goals, but since the last update, one was rewarded with a bonus and the other wasn't.

greenthumb · Jun 18, 2007, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vilaptca

If they added a new title track it would really have to be based off of how much faction we've earned. I can't see it being any other way.

Actually, the fairest thing would be a new title track where everyone starts at zero. New skills, new title track, new progress to be made on that title track. No credit received for achievements or points generated unrelated to the new benefit. Maybe something like the sunspear title track, and it could have titles like Redemptor, Clanleader, etc.

Andisa Kalorn · Jun 18, 2007, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

Actually, the fairest thing would be a new title track where everyone starts at zero. New skills, new title track, new progress to be made on that title track. No credit received for achievements or points generated unrelated to the new benefit. Maybe something like the sunspear title track, and it could have titles like Redemptor, Clanleader, etc.

This is what I would prefer. Especially if the new title track was about equal to the sunspear track in terms of grind.

Neo Nugget · Jun 18, 2007, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Yea, a new title would sound more reasonable. But if they are gonna do this, please still keep supporter of the kurzicks/luxons lol. I would like to get it

Im at 53k right now

Neo Nugget · Jun 18, 2007, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Yep, i think i would rather have a new title than retroactive faction. Easier in the long run to get the skills worthwhile.

bilateralrope · Jun 18, 2007, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kratos Angel

No, no and no. I totally disagree, I don't see why people that were farming points to earn money with amber or jade should have as points as those who farm for their guild, to help others, not thinking only to money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeBron

People who traded faction for amber/jade recieved rare materials.

People who donated faction helped their alliance and made progress in their titles.

These are the choices that people made.

Only one of the choices affected the "Friend of" title. Retroactivity would be fair.

Two more people who claim that donating would help others, yet don't explain how it would help people who are in a guild that doesn't have a hope of holding a town due to not having enough people interested in it. Instead they just keep repeating the same argument over and over, despite the fact that most players wouldn't of been in an alliance that had a hope of owning a town, meaning the donations would of been for the title only.

And for the people in a town holding alliance, they can make gold reselling things from the discount merchants they have access to, like some are doing now with lockpicks.

Gli · Jun 18, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by dustbunny

Actually, you are not asking for a fair deal. You are asking for more than that.

Absolutely.

Fairness goes out the window when the rules are changed while a game is running. Therefore, the question is, who is more important? The people who spent tons of faction on amber and are disheartened by the grind they're looking at to achieve their titles now, or the people who missed out on some gold because they transferred their faction. If I were to weigh each group's discomfort and what they need to do to make up their loss (title or riches) I would say the title-less people are in a much rougher spot.

a) Riches are practically meaningless in this game, whereas skills are the pinnacle of necessity. Being screwed out of skills is worse than being screwed out of some spare cash.

b) Catching up on riches is a less restrictive activity than grinding for faction. Gold can be made anywhere, whereas faction can only be gained in a very limited number of ways/locations. Catching up on riches one missed out on is a less uncomfortable activity than catching up on the faction. And, let's not forget that there are people who did advance their riches by transferring faction to their alliance.

c) The number of people in each group is also a consideration. If you must antagonize people, you should antagonize as small a group as you can. That's just common sense. I don't have any data of course, but I expect that the group who turned their faction into materials is the larger one. ANet will probably know the score, or at least be able to determine a very good estimate based on the difference between people's allegiance titles and their total faction earned.

Considering all that, a choice must be made who will be the ones to be screwed over. I know who I'd chose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dustbunny

Do people always complain about what you didn't get or how crappy the gift is when someone gives you a gift?

Actually, yes. If someone were to give me a kid's bike for my birthday next week, I wouldn't hesitate to ask: "Where the hell were you 30 years ago?"

wetsparks · Jun 19, 2007, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gli

b) Catching up on riches is a less restrictive activity than grinding for faction. Gold can be made anywhere, whereas faction can only be gained in a very limited number of ways/locations. Catching up on riches one missed out on is a less uncomfortable activity than catching up on the faction. And, let's not forget that there are people who did advance their riches by transferring faction to their allianc

And to those who transfered over 10,000,000? There are people that maxed these titles out. That is a lot of money they could have made.

Gli · Jun 19, 2007, 12:25 AM // 00:25

They're far more screwed by the current update than they would've been if faction had been added retroactively. They farmed 5 million too much as of today's update. What is ANet thinking lately?

watrah · Jun 19, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Why you don't accept it as its

some guild have 1% to own town so they work in donation even though they didn't own it but they still have hope and there reword was there title track, where other in the other hand farm for amber/jade and get reworded for gold and armor

those skills was giving to this title track to give it some meaning and now it id much easer to get it than before and in the end it is account base title mean that all our char get benefit of it so it is not a west to start getting it

I don't know why some people want to have every thing it is really sad matter if you were one of them

You need to learn to accept the deal you made back then

Let me put it sample Anet change the old Deal of A and BC and give you a new Deal AC and BC so in the end you are the winner

noblepaladin · Jun 19, 2007, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by bilateralrope

Two more people who claim that donating would help others, yet don't explain how it would help people who are in a guild that doesn't have a hope of holding a town due to not having enough people interested in it. Instead they just keep repeating the same argument over and over, despite the fact that most players wouldn't of been in an alliance that had a hope of owning a town, meaning the donations would of been for the title only.

And for the people in a town holding alliance, they can make gold reselling things from the discount merchants they have access to, like some are doing now with lockpicks.

The people who donated without any chance of holding the town are either irrational or they wanted the title that had no impact on the game at all. The bottom line is why should some people get "rewarded" while others do not?

I think the main problem is not because of retroactive faction. Some people farmed to the max Sunspear title just for the title (and a little bit because of Sunspear Rebirth Signet). Now when the new Sunspear skills came out, they are at rank 10 already! But nobody is complaining, why? Because it takes a relatively short amount of time to farm the Sunspear title. You can go from zero to max in about 10 hours of farming.

The true reason why people are pissed off about the Luxon/Kurzick titles is because suddenly they need MONTHS of time to get their title up. People are more pissed that they can't use the skills or that they can't use the skills effectively because their title isn't high enough. Also, note that many of these skills are groundbreaking and revolutionary. Many of them are better than elites. This isn't like that 10% bonus on the Sunspear Rebirth Signet.

Everybody made their decision without knowing that these skills will come. When the game's rules changes, some people benefit and some people lose. However, in this case, the difference is several months of gameplay, not a few hours (like with Sunspear Skills). So of course a lot of people are pissed.

Based on the response on these forums, the general agreement seems to be that this title takes too long to grind (well, maybe except for the people who already have 5 million alliance points, and they just want to be "exclusive"). I'm pretty sure that ANet will change the title (i.e. add more tiers at lower levels, or make a new title, or make it based on Masters Completion of Factions campaign as someone suggested). ANet usually listens when the majority of the community complains.

william1975 · Jun 19, 2007, 12:59 AM // 00:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

But even if ANet was generous enough to think along those lines, the ungrateful players that we are, some of those who would then be rewarded with amber/jade would probably complain that when they donated their faction, the amber/jade was worth x amount, much more than it is now (now it's only worth about 100-300 gold).

I quite agree with you, its obvious from the posts that if they did do it people would still moan. The whole thing with this post is about people moaning about either not getting the title progression or not getting the material/gold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

Amber and jade just aren't worth that much now. Your "losses" from such a design change are probably relatively minimal now (maybe overall a good sum, but relatively considering the time and effort involved with generating that sum compared to the time and effort generating that relative faction is probably trivial). If amber and jade were worth a lot, that perceived unfairness could be seen as being more painful.

I dont consider myself to have lost anything, I'm not interested in having Jade/Amber, I'm only interested in getting titles. The only reason I would get Jade or Amber would be to buy Armour, but then I would trade for it. I was getting these titles without any benifit before this update, and with or without it i would be aiming to get them too

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

The new Luxon/Kurzick skills are a gift. You don't deserve it. Based on the design approach, you may have an advantage. Argue the scope of the advantage that perhaps is appropriate if ANet was generous enough to make the gift more widely available. I get the impression you're arguing that if ANet is being generous to others, you deserve a bigger gift.

I hope you are not saying that I personally don't deserve the skills, and what you actually mean is that the community doesn't deserve them. Otherwise I think you are being downright abusive. I believe we are all equal in this matter, the Skills were given to the community and nobody deserves them more or less than anyone else. And where you get off saying that I'm arguing that i deserve a bigger gift is incredulous. My argument has been primarily that I think Anet should leave this as it is, or if they don't then to give both sides the same treatment

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

ANet should just take these toys away. When kids are fighting over a toy and can't figure out a way to share, best thing to do is take it away

Under that analysis Anet should just shut the servers down, since every aspect of this game has people arguing about it, with no idea of how to come to a common agrement. People argue about the professions, the skills, the difficulty, implementations and on and on and on,

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

The design issue for ANet in releasing these new skills is how to scale their effectiveness, similar to the Sunspear PvE skills and how they scale with ranks in the Sunspear title. They arbitrarily selected those Kurzick/Luxon titles.

Personally, as evidenced by the discussion here, I don't think that was a wise approach. The fairest approach would've been a new title track. Everyone would perceive and acknowledge the novelty of the new benefit, and there would be no complaints about the undeserved advantage one group has over another.

Quite agree with you here too, would have been simpler to implement a new title related to Factions, and the way they have implemented it is a bit of a mess.

Miral · Jun 19, 2007, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenthumb

Actually, the fairest thing would be a new title track where everyone starts at zero. New skills, new title track, new progress to be made on that title track. No credit received for achievements or points generated unrelated to the new benefit. Maybe something like the sunspear title track, and it could have titles like Redemptor, Clanleader, etc.

yeah that would work. and add an easy way to catch up for those that already beat factions and won't get reward from primary quests and such anymore (kinda like the Land Of Heroes quest that was added to nightfall for foreign characters)